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Comment #1 posted on 2013-01-11 16:38:06 by Charles in NJ

Thanks for Posting This

It sounds like we now have another new conversational direction for HPR. I thought you did a great job of setting the table for what could be a series on the topic of food.

Your show, coming as it does in the early part of the year, gives me an opportunity to do my own homework and check your statements.

If I find any new information that would shed light on this topic, I would now feel comfortable using HPR to make that available.

Most of all, thanks for posting this as a first word in what could be a very interesting conversation. It sounds like you've done a lot of work and thinking about this fundamental topic.

Cheers!

Charles in NJ

Comment #2 posted on 2013-01-12 09:50:25 by Dude-man

Something else, more hard facts a video

Heres a video, 2 hours and I'd really sugest, encourage following along and following the leads for yourself.

https://youtu.be/fvKdYUCUca8



And another thing is learning dificulties and different degrees of Autisum which is growing now a days, there is a transitional diet, with much information of success in helping these children, and again not yet know in the mainstream https://www.westonaprice.org/childrens-health/gaps

Comment #3 posted on 2013-01-13 20:39:36 by Ken Fallon

Tales from the green valley

Hi All,

I would recommend that everyone interested in this topic, take the time to watch the excellent "Tales from the Green Valley" which describes life on a British farm in the 17th century prior to industrialization. In the series has historians live the life, eat the diet and farm using the husbandry practices that were in use at the time.

Interestingly everything described in the entire series is based on an account written in books and letters of people who actually lived at the time and who themselves documented their own lives. They make a point of giving the reference to the person who documented it and in what book or letter it was published. Unfortunately I didn't make note of each of the references but it would be fascinating resource to get the first hand accounts from people who lived the life and see how that compares to someone viewing it as a complete outsider.

The link to the series is here:
https://www.petersommer.com/about-peter-sommer-travels/tales-from-the-green-valley

Ken.

Comment #4 posted on 2013-01-17 12:22:37 by Dude-man

Re:Tales from the green valley

Just taking a look Ken, was wondering how exactly it was related to the episode, does the video support or appose/question any facts I mentioned, you wern't very specific ?

Comment #5 posted on 2013-01-17 12:47:55 by Dude-man

Great examples of the past are historical re-enactments by book experts.

Just watched again these episodes on youtube... here are some thoughts.

"modern health and safty means they can't actually live here"
:)

Nice get a bunch of experts to try and recreate something, and prove its not possible.

An expert who's never actually plowed before :) oxen that are overweight and out of condition, I'm talking about the tv people, not neccessarily the ox owners., just guessing as it is for TV after all.

its really an interesting demonstation that even apparent experts can't quickly learn skills even though they are very exicited to try, and perhaps well meaning to at least recreate history., and create some TV at the same time

watching idiots chasing pigs was very funny :)

but still there is no mention of anything relating to my episode that I can see ?

Are you trying to say that this serious shows that people can't go back to those times, as show and apparently demonstated in these self proclaimed experts playing at recreating somthing.? That wasn't what I thought I was saying in the episode, at least no my intention.

Althought the serious is interesting, I don't fully see how its related to my episde, or modern homesteading, other than to demonstate that modern people are pretty inept and out of touch about what is food, where it comes from, and what is good for them, and of course how to live in nature and produce their own food.

I know Ken, as you explained to me you grew up on a small dairy farm in Irland and have experience, as I do, in mowing grass/milking etc and it didn't sound like you'd ever want to go back, and the way you explained it I'd have to agree with you, however I concioulsly chose to do it at the age of 30, relearn all the skills required using modern technology where appropriate and avantagous. Basicly bringing the knowledge about food and change in the shape of our children it effects to allow me or anyone else to make concious descitions as to how they want to live, not just seeing a crude historical re-inactment with no relation as to why they might want to return to any of the values of living with nature and having healthy food.

Comment #6 posted on 2013-01-19 06:05:28 by Jacob Dalton

Hacking and Permaculture

Dude-Man I was wondering if you've heard of Open Source Ecology--it's a project that is pretty much built out of hacking and permaculture.

https://opensourceecology.org/

Comment #7 posted on 2013-01-19 10:29:19 by Ken Fallon

RE: Great examples of the past are historical re-enactments by book experts.

Have you watched the entire series or did you dismiss it just because they were not allowed to sleep in a building that had been derelict for years ? Having watched the entire series your comments seem to contradict everything I got from the show. Even if you seem to think it's a crude historical re-enactment, I am very disappointed that you could not see past that and notice as I did that as the series progresses they each hone their particular skills. Case in point the Oxen and the men develop their muscles and take pleasure and satisfaction from the hard labour so that by the end the humans and animals had formed genuine bonds.

However we are all entitled to our opinions so to make it clear, what I was trying to point out is that there is a wealth of information available to you on living with nature and having healthy food from the writings of peoples who lived prior to the onset of Industrialization. While you may mock the historians who like yourself were attempting to recreate the skills lost to time, the information they were basing their actions on was written by people who will have used those skills all their lives. Those peoples left detailed records of their traditions, practices, diets, technology describing how life was lived for centuries. If you can see past the reality show aspects, you might want to chase down the books that they mention in the show which should be out of copyright by now. There is probably an equivalent stock of literature available to you from the Czech Republic.

In your show you mentioned that the families were inaccessible in the winter, so I understand Weston A Price would have only seen the societies during a time of plenty. He may have seen them as healthy people and attributed it to their diet, which given he was only there for the summer would have been full of rich fatty foods. This would seem to agree with what the historians say the diet of a homesteader would have been in the summer. This would seem to back up your point of giving our children rich fatty foods as the evidence as presented would suggest that this would lead to health.

However as the historians point out, during the winter their diet changed radically to the point of starvation. I don't know if Dr. Price took this into account or not but if you assume that he did then the advice to eat fatty foods should be given with the caveat that it should be for a short period of time and that you should also starve yourself for a significant portion of the year. If you wish to eat a pre-industrialised diet, then research that diet and present it in it's entirety with evidence from multiple sources. Sources which this television series proves are available to you.

Comment #8 posted on 2013-01-19 12:13:36 by Dude-man

Sorry but you've not studied much yet ?

Yes, to the best of my knowledge about a year ago, when I first came accross the whole BBC historical episodes, I watch the whole thing. Which is one of the problems with youtube, you can spend many hours watching everything in one go, loved it. And don't get me wrong I enjoyed it very much, have first hand learnt or at least tried many of the skills to varying degrees of success over the last 10 years, really about my whole journey is to actually comprehending technology, and I mean in its real definition of the word, hence why I started my own podcast on T E C H N O L O G Y and not just how techknology is being presented by computer/gadget tech journalism and sellers etc (Nothing against them, I love a bit of computer tech as much as the next man).

The reason I replied to you reference to these programs is that I didn't see exactly how it was related to the dietary information and the shapes and builds of children/adjults when different foods were eaten. The evidences I based the whole episode where in the notes, which you or anyone else is free to follow up and research into the actual information given. The food's and habits and hense health was already modified during those periods historically reconstructed in the BBC's series, and many of the practices were actually the start of what we now have and consider normal today. Also many of the practices shown are actually part of the reason why many people could be fooled into leaving the country side, where they should be healthy and happy, to the city from the false promise of an easy and more afluent life without the drudgery and ill health they HAD come to experience in the country side by actual BAD practices in order to sell often what was the best of their produce, cheaply to the city merchants so the country people could buy cheap low nutrient dense and stomach filling foods.

It seems to me that this is something more personal with you as your childhood background on an actual farm has convinsed you that its a bad way to live, and perhaps how you were doing it it was ? I don't know ? However when the clever people actually return to the country side, relearn the skills, judge in a balanced way how the old and new can be used together, and more importantly, which was the point of my presentation, actually understand what healthy food is, and educate and share the information to consumers can therefore actually sell direct (no merchants) and get a fair price which would mean they don't have to go down the path of continually cutting corners and chepening the food they may sell.

Before you quote me yet more things that you think I've not read or don't understand, why don't you follow up on the information I've shared and look more deeply at what is presented, these things I've mentioned are beyound being merly my own opinion.

I repeat, the journey towards industrializtion happened gradually, the cheapening of our foods, even in the coutry also was gradual, and in the societies you mention where documention was made these were subject to those slow changes. This is why the book by Weston A Price is such a treasure as he found and studied 14 groups who were isolated, to you understand the significance of that ? they were actually through necessaty following what they had done for many generations and hadn't been exposed by the gradual pressuers of external trade and merchants expoloytation which if you had the connections to the larger world would have effected all other peoples.

As for not having enough foods during winter time, you are talking nonsense, what you say may be true in that it actually happened. However understanding food technology, how hight quality foods can be harvested and stored for long periods, if you don't try and buy suger/coffee and other crap from merchants from presure of wifes or apparent perseption of luxsury, then people would/could of had more than enough food for themselves. Of course assuming the crazy burdon of taxes to cripple people and steal from them wasn't also in effect, forcing them to give up their wealth of good foood made from their own labour.

I ask you kindly to actually study the two books or website I mention so you can avoid just sounding plain stupid, as your trying to defend you current life position, which I'm not intentionally trying to undermine. This episode was to upset anyone, just allow anyone make a concious decision based on actual good science. If you look at the foods suggested to eat during religious fasting, for apparent clensing and the times of year these were eaten I can help us think a bit why these rules may have been made, when we understand what those foods actually do to us.

Have you seen yet the 2 hour video I posted in the comments to these videos ?

If you feel so strongly about this, I'd be happy to talk with you or record another episode with your help, or your wifes, you mention she'd heard of the books. Otherwise I think it would be better to actually study what I mentioned and comment in relation to those things, not trying to proof that its somehow a burdemsom and toiling life with no meaning and something we can't go back to (I think we'd never want to go back to those historyical times presented in the bbc serious) however there is something to learn and change in our current lifes.

/END Rant

Comment #9 posted on 2013-01-19 12:29:58 by Dude-man

reply to #6 - Jacob Dalton

Yes I'd come accross opensource technology a few months ago, had a good look but was disapointed. While I love tech, all tech, what I love best is tech that serves us and is practical, I know its possible to get so into building something that we loose site of the forest for the trees, and actually spend all our time re-inventing something that already exists and can be bought cheaply second hand (a tractor, look at his plans for an ultra modern tractor), or not actually being balanced enough to realize that in many areas trying to solve everything with new technology actually negates the human, relationship, family participation and strengh of community gained by doing somethin conciously in a none-modern tech way.

The peace of mind, strengh of charictor, bond and depth of relation within family and society at large through picking conciously how we do thing based upon the effect they actually have on us. Which was my whole motivation and reason for developing my podcast, which to be honest I loose interest in a little, nothing personal against you or anyone else.

A good example for who most of the weston world percieve and practice tech is the USA's space pen, millions, perhaps more money to develop a pen that can write upside down etc etc. The Rusians solution, less than a $, a pencil. Sometimes our heads can be so far up our own A?????'s that we don't see the simple solution.

And that is what I took away from that site, no offence meant.

Comment #10 posted on 2013-01-19 17:15:35 by Ken Fallon

RE: Sorry but you've not studied much yet ?

Hi Dude-man,

As we said on the New Year Show, HPR is about challenging and expanding the discussion and with that in mind what I would like to establish is an alternate source of information to either corroborate or refute the evidence Dr. Price presents. I accept that you are greatly affected by his works but not to challenge the theories would simply be unscientific and would elevate his book to that of a religious work that must be accepted on faith alone. Therefore I want to find a literate people who were isolated in a manner described by Dr. Price and who documented their own lives. By comparing both works we get a fuller picture of the truth.

I am genuinely surprised that you would say that people in the 1600's were already affected by industrialization of the food chain. At the time the only industrialization would have be localized to water mills which were isolated and not available everywhere. The industrialization that you speak of is generally accepted to have started after 1760 a full hundred years after the time period in discussion in the show.

Do you have a specific time period in mind where the type of life studied by Dr. Price would have been practiced on the Islands of Ireland or England ? The reason I focus on those is because those regions are the places where I am most familiar with and it would greatly assist in my ability to be able to call information to hand. I would appreciate it if you could keep your reply civil and avoiding drawing conclusions about other peoples live choices.

Regards,

Ken.

Comment #11 posted on 2013-01-19 20:23:37 by Dude-man

Confused

I'd still suggest that you or anyone interested first look into the souces of information and the actual research that W A Price did do and present in lay persons language for the general good of normal people in his main book. If you consider this or anything I've said religious in some way I'm sorry for you about that, and you still seem to miss the point. Did you watch the 2 hour video I shared ?

The foods we eat are not only effected by the degree of visible industrialization in its production or pressesing, although that does later effect our foods in a very big way, but more importantly our foods and that which our ansesters ate, even back to roman times or perhaps later ? was effected by your position or status in life what you could afford or what you couldn't and perhaps actually choise to sell the best in order to by a larger quantity of something of less value or other things that might be anti foods in fact. Industrialization has just made these foods and the effects much more obvious. A choice to eat predomantly low nutrient foods, grain, potatoes, rices, just a few examples and reduce the nutrient dense foods in diets, has happened throughout the ages, for perhaps simular reasons, but I'm not a historian.

So which that I hope you understand the pointless ness in entering into some discussion, along your line of reasoning, as your missing the point through your current lack of knowlege of what actual food is good to eat, which foods would be preferable sold to markets and therefore depriving a family of the best nutrition no mater which time in history you care to look at. The isolated peoples had plenty, generally had little need to trade or aquire more expensive things at the cost of their valuable and priced foods, and that is the point.

Lets have a talk about it more, if your still interested, when you've at least had chance to follow up the links, references, books, videos I mentioned. If they still interest you or anyone else ? I have nothing to proove, or to say which isn't said and stated clearly by more clever and respected people than me and after all the proof is in the pudding, which I and many people are already greatfull to around the world. And I'm sure you know the origins of pudding has nothing to do with what we have come to think it means.

Comment #12 posted on 2013-01-20 08:30:03 by Ken Fallon

RE: Confused

Hi Dude-man,

I am not discussing the findings as yet because I have yet to get an independent verification of the work. I appreciate that is difficult but we should be at least able to determine what the selection criteria was for the sample groups studied by Dr. Price. Can you share with us what definition he assigned to determine that the "isolated peoples" were isolated enough.

Would you accept that Ireland in the period of 400-800AD would meet the definition you give of "The isolated peoples had plenty, generally had little need to trade or aquire[sic] more expensive things at the cost of their valuable and priced foods". Ireland at the time was outside the sphere of Roman influence and had abundant resources. There is also a wealth of documents describing the diets and lives of it's people at the time.

Would you agree that this is a suitable basis for comparison ?

Ken.

Comment #13 posted on 2013-01-20 10:01:49 by Dude-man

Really ?

Really ? are you serious about this Ken ? take a look at the books follow the references there, you don't need me or anyone else to provide you what is already available. Your picking a pointless argument pretending to be all scientific about it, really ?

If you had one ounce the humility that many of the people involved in these researches had you'd at least study openly what they've provided, before asking for counter evidence. Have you studied the actual suplied evendence ? do you know what counter evidence your even asking for ?

Unless you actually answer my ? in the replies above, read or watch the available information you just wasting your's, mine and everyones time, just study the information I've shared and find counter arguments if you care to disprove something or have points to make.

I repeat...

Lets have a talk about it more, if your still interested, when you've at least had chance to follow up the links, references, books, videos I mentioned. If they still interest you or anyone else ? I have nothing to proove, or to say which isn't said and stated clearly by more clever and respected people than me and after all the proof is in the pudding, which I and many people are already greatfull to around the world. And I'm sure you know the origins of pudding has nothing to do with what we have come to think it means.

Comment #14 posted on 2013-01-20 10:09:46 by Dude-man

Is this the scientific method ?

Is this the scientific method ? Which I make no claim to understand or follow. I'm just applying my common sense and reading as much and as many different opinions as possible. Seeing all the time which financial interests may be invested towards any particular opinions presented.

If you not going to discuss anything unless its been validated by an apparent offical scientific study, I do ask you to show me how the information in the video link I posted above is actually wrong and those studies which are the basis for the low fat/colestoral premise are all in correct, and we should be eating vegatble oil, lots of fruit and vegatables if we want to be healthy, as we are advised by offical scientific studies ? Please show me how the information in the video is a lie and I'm wrong and religious as you say ?

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